Terracon 2025 the worlds NOR conference

Welcome back to Mortuary Mayhem, a podcast by funeral service professionals for funeral service professionals, where any day above ground is a good one. Folks, I just got back from Terracon 2025. Honestly, I can't express enough. I've been to a lot of conferences, and this was not just any conference. This was an experience.
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If you've ever been to a retreat, that's what I really felt like. I kept calling it. I said, I really feel like I'm on a retreat every day. It just flew by, but it felt like I didn't feel like I was there working. It didn't feel like this was a conference where we were all taking notes, but we were. We were taking notes. We were making mental notes, written notes, whatever we were doing so that we could better the world. We could bring this information home.
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But honestly, at the end of every day, I just felt like I was part of a retreat. It was absolutely amazing. TerraCon is an immersive experience. And, you know, this is looking at eco-conscious death care, the science, the legislative triumphs, the cultural context. This is looking at perspectives throughout the industry and
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We heard narratives from families and deaf doulas, and it really was all-encompassing. It wasn't just one walk of life or one group in the room. We had licensed funeral directors and embalmers. We had deaf doulas. We had people that were working with TerraMation with natural organic reduction in their states. We had legislators.
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you know, regulators, people that were pushing for this in their states and people that had already pushed. And we had people throughout the entire world. We had people from Belgium, Germany, Austria. We had people from all over the world and all over the United States. So it was absolutely amazing. To kick this off, I want you to hear from Micah Truman, the CEO of Return Home, the largest termination company in the world.
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Micah is also the mastermind behind TerraCon, so let's hear from Micah. I think the most exciting thing for me is realizing that the entire industry, the funeral industry, is starting to absolutely back it. And that's, I think, what's really going and really exciting. This is going to be carried by our professionals, our funeral industry, our funeral directors, and our terminations future rests on them. And the mortuary students are it. It's the whole game, baby. There's nothing else.
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Thank you, Micah, and thank you for making this all happen again. This is absolutely amazing. It was an experience. My plane landed on Monday, and I went immediately from the airport, dropped my bags at the hotel, literally went in the door, dropped my bags, and just walked right back out, and went immediately to the return home facility for a tour. So I did not, my feet never stopped moving at that point, but
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It was absolutely amazing. Got to get a tour of Return Home, got to see everything that they do. Again, this is the largest facility, and it's absolutely amazing just to watch this from the beginning of the process. We gathered in the room that the families would gather in for a service. And this was not like a funeral home parlor that we would be used to. This was really, I mean, there was candles on the walls everywhere.
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there was, you know, where the vessel would go in the front, it was very, you know, it wasn't a carpeted room, it was a concrete floor, but you just felt like it was, you know, you felt comfortable there, and the chairs just made you feel comfortable and welcome, it was, you know, it wasn't this off-putting environment, it didn't make you feel like death, it didn't make you feel
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dreary and made you feel cheerful and welcome. And, you know, I really could appreciate that. And then you walk through this entire process where you're going from that to, you know, where they're meeting with families and having the actual arrangements and then where you can, you know, where the family could visit and
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their loved one throughout this process. Again, this is a 90-day process. First 45 days, they're spending in a vessel that's three by three by, you know, six, you know, feet in that, you know, somewhere in that range. And this vessel is monitored for weight. It's monitored for air quality, you know, for the air circulation, rather, airflow, and measured for, you know, the temperature. So,
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With that, they're able to determine at what point the microbial process has reached its peak, and when that microbial process has also slowed down. So they're monitoring when it slows down. They remove that pod from the shelving that it's on. They're able to then put it onto a rotator that rotates this, mixes what's in the contents of this vessel,
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And that allows the microbial process to restart at this point. And, you know, by getting everything mixed up. And then when they put it back on the shelf, that sits there until that happens again. Once they reach that point, they know that the microbial process has now stopped. And that spinning takes place a couple weeks in. Now, they...
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move this individual at that point, they're going to move them to a smaller container, a square pod, and in that, before they do that process, they are, you know, they're at that time, they're able to grind up and change the size of the bone similar to what you're going to see with cremation. And if you're familiar with the cremation process, you know that that is a full skeleton that does come out of the retort,
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And they then, during cremation, they are then moving that skeleton to, you know, to a tray that then goes to a pulverizer that breaks those bones down to a non-identifiable fragmented sort that you're used to. But the same thing happens. And the same thing happens with alkylation, you know, alkaline hydrolysis. You come out of the skeleton and they go through this process of pulverizing the bones down to an unrecognizable size and state.
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But with terimation, the nice thing with this is that the bones are not damaged. You know, heat and all of those things can damage the bones. They do actually have a full skeleton and this skeleton, you know, some of these bones will break down on their own, just like cremation or alkaline hydrolysis, that not all the bones, but some of the bones are still there. And the nice thing for this is that from a forensic standpoint, they could re-examine these bones if they needed to. So,
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When you're working with something like cremation or alkaline hydrolysis, that is very permanent. And that does get rid of a lot of the toxicities, the pathogens, a lot of the evidence, all of that goes fairly quick. So there is always going to be a 48-hour waiting period. It's difficult, but every state obviously is a little different on that. But 48 hours tends to be the standard, where before cremation or alkaline hydrolysis, the
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You know, this body needs to be examined, needs to be determined that there is no chance that there could be any medical, legal proceedings or issues. There's nothing pending before that individual goes through a very permanent and irreversible form of disposition. But throughout the termination process, because it does take a period of time,
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it's not as risky in that factor because they could take this, even though it is speeding up decomposition, there is the chance where if something were to come up, that individual could be examined at any stage of that process. And this could also open the opportunity for a secondary post-mortem exam where you do an autopsy, but at that time, you're maybe not going to see
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the, you know, bone structure to it. You can look at an x-ray, you can examine things, but they're not going to look at every single bone. So at this point, now bones are now available, they're for the most part undamaged, and they can have a secondary examination. So that's really cool as well. But at this point, they do have, just like any other form of disposition that we utilize, they do have to break these bones down. So what they do is they tip this into a
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into a process that is able to break those bones down to smaller pieces, and then they go into a smaller container, a smaller vessel. When they move into a smaller vessel, at that time, you are now mixing fragmented bones in with all of the other materials that are part of this process.
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which means that those bones actually break down. They're not, when you're looking at this, they're not recognizable as bones. This is not like cremated remains or alkaline hydrolysis where you have bone fragments and they don't break down any further than that. In this case, they do because the fragment to the insides of those bones are now exposed that they actually break down as part of the remaining process.
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So that is actually really cool, and what you actually really have at the end really is soil, because it really does speed up even that part of the process, unlike other forms of disposition that otherwise could take a very long time for those bones to break down. Now, we're going to get into the science of this in a minute, but I just want to say, throughout this process,
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you know, experience again, I call it a conference, but it's an experience called this experience. One thing that I learned was how much this was a experience for a family and how much this was a tie to nature and a tie to emotion and a tie to a purpose for every one of these families. I went into this conference, I'll be honest, I went to this conference thinking this is just an environmentally friendly mode of disposition.
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This is what we're going for. We're looking for an eco-friendly. And I didn't realize how connected families really were to this process and how they were choosing it for that connection. So that was a huge takeaway for me. I want you to hear from a few other friends that I've made along the way and some new friends, some existing friends on what their take is on this.
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But before we do that, I'm going to give you a quick run through of what this conference entailed so that you can feel jealous and hopefully plan to join Terracon 2026, because I know I will. We started Tuesday morning with a great opening from Micah Truman, the CEO of Return Home and the mastermind behind this conference, behind the Terracon 2025 conference.
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followed by a great movie preview from Jonathan Pickett. He does documentaries, and he's been doing a documentary on terramation, on natural organic reduction, and the convocation from Brian Flowers from Wildflower Solutions. He was absolutely amazing. If you ever get a chance to hear Brian speak, he was absolutely amazing and definitely dominated that stage. Next, we got to learn about the state regulations
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from Eric and Taylor. Eric Halas and Taylor Johnson discussed the process that it took for them to get terramation, natural organic reduction, legalized in Minnesota. So this was actually great to hear from this because a lot of us are there to figure out how we can get this legalized in our states as well. Next, we got to listen
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to culturally relevant death care by Joelle Simone Maldondo. You may know her as the grave woman. She was absolutely amazing. She was, she's a very dynamic speaker and the information she was able to provide was next to none. So if you haven't never heard her speak, I recommend you look up her website. Again, the grave woman is what she's known as.
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Absolutely amazing the examples that she provided as to how we can have culturally relevant death care and provide these families what they're looking for. She had examples that I would have never thought about. And there's a lot of things, you know, obviously that families ask about that are just, you can't do, it's not legal and that's fine. But that's not what this is about. This is about providing culturally relevant care to our decedents and their families.
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things that they ask for, something like a mariachi band. There is nothing illegal about having a mariachi band. You can by all means have that. How to do hair properly, how to, you know, what are the requests that these cultures would look for and how to provide them that. So again, if you've never heard Joelle talk, it's definitely worth a listen. Then we heard from the families that have gone through this process and heard their testimony and
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which was very powerful, extremely powerful testimony that they were able to provide on the emotion that goes behind this and why they chose this. So we saw Chris Ronk, the Elliott family, Graves family, and the Mullins family take the stage. And Chris was the moderator that walked these families through their journey of natural organic reduction. It was absolutely powerful to listen to them speak.
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And again, this is an absolute experience. I can't say anything more. We also got to hear Monsignor Stollenberg from Germany speak about what the Catholic Church's take on termination is. And obviously, when you talk to your priest, your minister, your reverend, your rabbi, whatever your religion may be, you're going to get different takes on what natural organic reduction is and what the church or
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you know, religious bodies take on this is. This was absolutely amazing to listen to Monsignor and to see what the church's voice really is, you know, which may contradict what you're hearing locally. So it was good to hear an official voice on that. Then, of course, my great friend Faith Howe took the stage for gender-fluent death care
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She's absolutely amazing. This is a speech that she gives frequently, so if you've never heard her speak, you can definitely hear her speak. She speaks on it through various bodies, whether that be Connecting Vision. She's spoken for the NFDA. She's spoken for the ABVC. I know I've heard her speak in numerous venues. She is absolutely amazing. She dominates the stage when she speaks on this topic, and it was amazing.
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Her topic was very well received and very well needed. So again, if you've never gotten to hear Faith speak, I really encourage it. You can also go back quite a few episodes for the MortuaryMayhem.com podcast. And we did have Faith on the air. The title of the episode was Transforming Funeral Service. She is absolutely amazing. It was a two-part episode. The first part does talk
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about the topics that she was discussing during her talk here about gender fluid death care. Then we had a tech panel. John Paul, Chris Stone, Max Hoosh, and Seth Vidal took the stage to talk about the technology and really the science behind what's happening. How is this process taking place? They all have a different perspective. They all have a different science behind this. It's all rooted in
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really the same type of science. There's definitely similarities, but they've all taken their different take on this. And that is really the reality of this, that the vessels and the science behind this is bespoke. It is very customized. Each company does do their own thing, as there are copyrights involved in this. But they've all managed to make this happen, despite being slightly different and having different processes. Their outcome, they're
17 min. 8 sec.
Composted soil may look slightly different, and that's something we learned. We were looking at what Seth Vidal's company, The Natural Funeral out of Colorado, does versus what John Paul's company, where he works with Return Home. And you can compare their compost, and they definitely look different. And that was something that was brought up, too, where people pointed that out on how different the two are.
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The next morning, we started the morning with a morning remembrance. And if you've ever been to a funeral conference, you know that this is always a part of every conference because this is really the root of what we are. This is the root of who we are. So you can go to a lot of remembrance ceremonies for anything else, and usually it's a bow of the head and a moment of silence. But there was nothing like a moment of remembrance, a moment.
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Just a celebration of all the people that we've lost compared to what you'll see at a funeral conference. Because really, we do our best. That is what we do. So if we didn't do our best, we may have some issues on our hands. But Susan Cutshall took the stage and walked us through the morning remembrance. And as we entered the room, it was just absolutely amazing. We had some of the most amazing people.
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sounds and music taking place thanks to Bree Rose. She's a sound therapist, transition guide, and end-of-life doula. Just absolutely just touching the music just kind of soothes a soul. And she was absolutely amazing. And they walked us through. And throughout the beginning part of this conference, we were putting names. We were encouraged to put names in a book that was left out in the back of the room. So
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All of the names that were provided were read off so that all of our loved ones were included in this ceremony. That was followed by a doula panel. So Maureen Curies, Marquita Strauss, Andrea Deerhart, and Nisha Alibo all took the stage and they discussed from the doula panel, from a doula perspective rather,
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what it was like to work with families and regarding termination and end of life. So that was very touching to hear it from their perspective. And then Jean Bond Hall took the stage to talk about the science of termination. And that was extremely important because that's really what I think a lot of us are curious about is the science behind this and really how does this work?
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But we're also looking at things like the pathogens and the toxicology aspects of termation, which I'm going to get into in a minute as well. But then we also had Christopher Hughes join us from the UK, and he talked about international death care. His title, To Come Back to My Trees, which was, you know, is a translation of some ancient
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It was just incredible to hear him. He was funny, he was dynamic, and it was great to have him on the stage. And then we got to hear more about the legal structure of this and talking about the laws surrounding termination from Scott Schill. Again, like anything else in deaf care, the legalities are important. We wear a lot of hats in funeral service and deaf care in general.
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So somebody provided me a list a very long time ago, you know, of all the hats that we wear. It was two sides of an eight and a half by 11 piece of paper covered from top to bottom and very small text and only commas between words. So it was just there was a lot of hats. And legal matters is one of the bigger parts that we do. We have to be proficient. We have to be fluent in the law.
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so that we understand what we are doing, we need to serve our families correctly, and we need to keep ourselves out of trouble, of course, but we need to navigate that. So the law is very important. And then we also got to hear from the CEOs, Jeff Georgian, Mike Regan, Micah Truman, and Pablo Matez joined us. So we have the country and we have the world. Pablo comes from Germany.
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So we had the world and the country represented from CEOs that are working with this every day, and we got to hear their take on what it's like to run a natural organic reduction business. So that was incredible to hear from them and from their perspective. Then we heard more about Science God Interimation from John Paul, again from Return Home, and
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he got to talk you know get a very inspirational speech uh we heard about the science and he took that science to the next level and talked about how this really ties into everything else now of course we we had a quick benediction from katie houston and then the conference center was trying to push us out at the end we were kind of strapped for time i can't say i have ever been kicked out of a conference
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And this will be a first. So we really did. We only went over by 15 minutes for those that are wondering. But let me tell you, they had the people try to push us out the door and hurt us because that was we just we didn't have anybody want to leave. We were there and nobody, even though we all knew that we were running right to the last minute, we knew we were over. I can't say that anybody was.
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Etching to leave the room. Nobody was looking at their watch. I mean, our closing remarks from Micah and Bree may have been cut a little short and maybe a little brief because we were that close after the benediction. But honestly, it was well worth it. You know, if we had to make it to the last minute again, none of us were rushing to get out of there. So it really was. It was absolutely amazing. An absolutely amazing experience.
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So I want you to hear from some of my great friends and some of my new friends on what their experience was from Terracon 2025. I want you to be jealous. Seriously, I want you to be jealous that you were not there, and I want you to go to Terracon 2026, and I hope to see you there, and I hope to see you many times between now and then, of course. But I want you to hear from a few of my friends.
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But while you do that, I want you to listen. There is a common theme among everything that they say. And I want you to listen for that theme. It's my pleasure to introduce Dan Holland. He's the CEO of BYND Incorporated out of Grand Rapids, Michigan. Now, Dan, for all of the folks that didn't join us here in Washington at Terracon 2025, what are they missing out on? What are the highlights of this conference so far that you think that they should know? Okay.
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I would have to say that if you're not here and you want to be a part of the NOR movement, what you're missing is the community, the sense of community. What you find is that there's really great people in this industry, people that care about people and people that care about our environment. They want to get things right and they're willing to share, they're willing to help you connect.
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And as that community develops, the earlier you get in, the more you're going to benefit from it if you want to be a part of it. Whether you're going to be an NOR provider or you're going to provide some other service, such as maybe a deaf doula service, whatever it is, I think it's important to not just be here at this conference, but to find your way to connect.
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this is an excellent way to do it. We've made some really good contacts. Two out of the three of us were here last year, and this year a third person came, and that person is seeing things that the other two of us did not see. Of course, it's a different format, it's different content, so it's new and refreshed, and we're always learning something. So for me, it is well worth the investment in time and money to be here. Thank you. Yeah.
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Now, of course, we had the added bonus that while I was recording Dan at the conference, that took place during the morning remembrance ceremony. So we actually had the added bonus of capturing some of the music from that ceremony that was produced by Brie Rose taking place in the background. So that was a little added bonus, a little bit of a sample of what you missed.
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Next, I want to introduce a new friend that I had the pleasure of meeting at the conference, Ashley Shelton. She was absolutely engaged in this. She really early on told me, she goes, I'm just a sponge. I'm just sucking this all in. She goes, I just can't get enough of this. She goes, this is so fascinating. And to see her excitement and to see her enthusiasm was absolutely enlightening. And, you know, again, absolutely a great person. So let's hear...
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what Ashley has to say about what you missed from this conference. So my name is Ashley Shelton. I'm brand new to this industry and I'm here to learn and gather information. I would like to promote TerraMation in my state. I'm from California. And what I learned here was that people are so open and so willing to share what they've discovered through trial and error. And that's incredible and quite unique.
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this industry is going through a revolution, and it is a very exciting time to be a part of it. Ashley Shelton is a name we're all going to hear on the death care scene for years to come, so I hope you're taking notes. Now, I want to jump into some of the science, because that is really somewhere where the questions come from a lot of times, is the pathogens and the toxicology aspect, and is the stuff still there?
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present after termination, and is this a safe means of disposition? Now, we a lot of times attribute cremation or even alkaline hydrolysis and some of these more instant modes of disposition for their ability to get rid of pathogens, especially the harder to combat ones. So the reality is that these pathogens that we come to question are
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are being combated or destructed, would be probably the better term for that, within somewhere between 20 minutes all the way up to about 120 or less than 120 days. But we're looking at things like tuberculosis that could die within 20 minutes at 70 degrees Celsius. And even just something like 24 hours for E. coli and pigmenor only lasted 24 hours at 50 degrees Celsius. And
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We take the same thing, E. coli and pig manure, and we raise that by five degrees from 50 degrees Celsius down to 50 or up to 55 degrees Celsius. And we went from 24 hours down to two hours. So it's incredible what temperature can do during a process. But we're looking at fecal and our cocci at 55 degrees will be 2.1 hours.
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We're looking at same temperature for salmonella with 80 days and same temperature for fecal coliforms found in compost or the fecal strep in compost, both at 55 degrees Celsius is less than 120 days. But even enteritis at 45 degrees is the lowest temperature they're looking at. You're looking at two days versus that tuberculosis at 70 degrees Celsius was 20 minutes.
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So again, we're looking at anything very, you know, between that. So these pathogens are undetectable. They're destroyed or they're inactivated or whatever the case may be, or they're reduced. So in the case of, you know, fecal enterococci or fecal coliforms or fecal strep, we're looking at a reduction in that.
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which means that, yes, we may have a little ways to go. And this study was not conducted necessarily in the vessels that these termination facilities are using. These were done with animals out on farms in open-air cremation. So keep that in mind where these studies are coming from, that once you're using these receptacles, that temperatures do have the ability to rise to much higher levels
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given the containment of that, that we're going to destroy these pathogens a lot quicker. Now, looking at the forensic morphology of this, the cadaveric period of bone material is usually about 20 to 50 years in the ground. It depends on the type of soil that we're obviously working with. But with terramation, with natural organic reduction, because the
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bone material is broken down further, similar to cremation or acclimation, alkaline hydrolysis rather, we're seeing this bone matter actually compost and become one with the material within that 90-day period. We're seeing it actually within the last 45 days of that period, the first 45 days being dedicated to the soft tissue. Now, at that time,
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the bones are able to break down because when they are broken down, they're more porous. The bone marrow is already breaking down. So we're looking at a lot of other factors. Now, one question that you may have come to mind is medications. So looking at things like fentanyl, diazepam, norezepam, lorazepam, so looking at various things along that toxicology screening, they were
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get they were doing targets and saying that we think that this is going to be there in some cases it was and then we had other in these other tests where they were looking and in most of the cases they were negative now it doesn't mean that those that were positive would continue to be positive it just means within the time frame that they utilized that the toxicology screening was still present but in these cases you also have to consider from a scientific note
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When were these medications administered? Were they administered very recently or were they administered much further out? But again, given those factors, these toxicologies would disappear in a shorter period of time. So given that during this, we're looking at about 70 degrees Celsius for the termination, we're looking at 158 degrees Fahrenheit. They're looking at toxicology, pharmaceuticals. Over that time period, over 40 days,
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was when this study is all conducted. Now we're looking at bacterial and fungal, the microbiome, and how does that react with these substances as well. And of course the pH value does get changed as well. So that is a factor that certainly comes into play. But something we have to consider is if there's a crime, if we're dealing with a crime scene, those remains can be viewed from a forensic standpoint that is,
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During the process, they can halt the process if need be in order to further examination and get toxicology results and get more pathological results, medical legal results rather. And then again, after this process, before they break down the bones, this could add the ability to provide even more forensic studies because you now have undamaged bones, untraumatized bones that could then be reexamined
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for any traumas, orthopedic traumas, that were otherwise unable to be examined during the original autopsy. One question you may be asking yourself is, is the DNA still viable? And yes, the DNA is still there. The DNA is very miniscule in this point, but it is present to some degree.
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We could still test that. You could still find DNA if you're looking for it, unlike cremator remains or alkaline hydrolysis, where the DNA, if it is present, is extremely miniscule and not discoverable or not able to be found. So in this case, yes, the DNA would still be present. Now, when we're looking at mole or without bones, you're looking at nutrient rich, loose, botanically active soil.
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The pH value is a little bit on the acidic to neutral side, and it has great storage of water, of excess water, which is great for growing plants, of course, right? Because you want your soil to hold some level of water, not too much, but you want some good level of water storage to allow the roots to take that up. If the soil is too dry, which is great for things like cacti and whatnot, that doesn't hold that water well,
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it's not going to give, it's not nutrient-rich soil that would help provide for that plant. When you have mole earth after the grinding process of adding those bones, the bone fragments now add mineral content to that compost, which provides, again, it's uniform structure. It's all small fragments of these bones. It's not even noticeable. If you were to spread this, you would think that you were spreading a mixture of bark mulch and soil.
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it's not something where you look and I know I've had containers I've gone out hiking and all of a sudden someone says, hey, Dan, you would know, does this cremator remains? I look and it's like a Altoids container that contains cremator remains of someone just left behind, you know, along a trail. So, you know, this would be unidentifiable. It would be one with nature. When you spread it, it wouldn't have that, you know, bone fragment identifiable nature. And it also provides nutrients. So,
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In the case of alkaline hydrolysis and cremation, we do have the ability of putting it in urns, we have the ability to put it in jewelry, we have all of those beautiful options, of course, and you can spread it. But the thing that a lot of people don't realize is if you spread those cremated remains, they do have the ability to kill plants because of just what they are formed of. So they actually have to, I'm not saying you can't do it, but they should be mixed with something
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that neutralizes them prior to scattering, so that they don't kill the plant that they're being spread around. In the case of natural organic reduction, termination, this is excessively nutrient-rich, which could also have an effect on plants, of course, on the opposite end, but in moderation, it does have the ability for you to...
37 min. 14 sec.
continue growing stuff in that, and it does provide a, you know, nutrient-rich nature that things like cremated remains and alkaline hydrolysis just cannot provide. Now, in the UK, 79% of deaths are cremated. That's 470,000 cremations in 2023 alone, among 300 crematoriums in the UK and 606
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cremation machines, okay, what we would refer to in the United States as a retort. So that's roughly around two retorts per crematorium. So you're looking at 245 kilograms of carbon dioxide. That's about 115,150 tons of carbon dioxide combined. So with that, again, we're looking at negative emissions in many cases with
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natural organic reduction. So in comparison, conventional burial is around 500 pounds of carbon dioxide admission versus flame cremation is just slightly below that. Alkaline hydrolysis being somewhere in the much lower, probably about 50 pounds per carbon dioxide
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Green burial is about negative 50 pounds of carbon dioxide. Terramation, on the other hand, has negative 1,000 pounds of carbon dioxide emitted. That is negative half of a ton of carbon. So this is a negative footprint. We actually are providing for that. Now, looking at
39 min. 8 sec.
When they were looking at respondents, the NFDA does annual survey of what are people interested in for their burial means, form of disposition, rather. And in 2021, they were looking at, and I'm looking at a chart here, so I don't have the actual numbers, but I'm going to guess that looks like about 25% plus or minus where the dot lands in 2021 versus 2023.
39 min. 38 sec.
They were looking at, that looks probably around 61% based off the chart. And then in 2024, a whole year later, they were looking at 68% of respondents to the annual survey said they were interested in green funeral options. So that's incredible. And I know when I was at the NFDA conference in New Orleans back in October, they were showing that, again, the
40 min. 7 sec.
baby boomers were still interested in cremation. And that's where we're kind of pushing our mark and everyone goes, ah, cremation's growing, growing, growing, growing. And it's not necessarily growing for the long term. So don't change your methods to be 100% cremation because that's not where your consumers, you have to meet your consumer where they are. And I did mention on a previous podcast that
40 min. 37 sec.
episode where we said that the baby boomers are making the decisions for their parents, right, the silent generation. And they're also known as traditionalists. And they want traditional services, but their children are making those decisions for them, which means that a lot of them are getting cremated. And there's nothing wrong with that. But as we're looking at survey respondents, we're noticing that millennials are slightly less cremation and slightly more burial.
41 min. 5 sec.
We're seeing that the, you know, Gen X, rather, is a little bit more. Millennials a little bit more than that. And as we get towards Gen Z, we're seeing, you know, each one of them is going more towards burial, but they're also going a lot more towards green dispositions. Okay, so looking towards terrametian and looking towards, you know, green burial. And when we're looking at Gen Z, they're a lot more.
41 min. 35 sec.
green, you know, green services, green burial and, you know, termination as their option. So that is the direction that the future generations are moving in. And that is the direction that we need to ensure that we're also moving in to be able to work with our consumers. Next, I want you to hear from a very dynamic individual, Cleo Dupenschel from Croque-Madame from Brussels, Belgium.
42 min. 1 sec.
I went up to Cleo and I just told her, I said, look, I said, you are at the microphone for every opportunity you get, you're at the microphone. And she chuckled and she says, you know, I traveled far enough to get here. I traveled 15 hours from Belgium to get to this conference. She goes, I am asking every question I can. She goes, I am getting my information. She goes, I am not wasting a minute. And I thought that was awesome. I really did. You may recognize Cleo from the
42 min. 31 sec.
Terracon 2024. She was in a lot of images that are published of the Terracon 2024 a lot of times, again, at the microphone, and she got her answers. She really was awesome. So I want you to hear from Cleo. All right, Cleo, what should our listeners take away from this conference that they missed? And I want them to be jealous that they weren't there so that they come to Terracon 2026.
42 min. 59 sec.
But yeah, so all the things, like the highlights, things that people are missing and why they should have been here. They're missing the love. They're missing the real, you know, connection between all these people. I come from very far away and it's only here that I can find this. And you have many people working to make Terramation legal and willing to do the good thing, the best thing. And yeah, that's why I come here.
43 min. 29 sec.
to find and we find so many good ideas and so many people motivated to make the world a better place.
43 min. 55 sec.
And that's why you're missing a room full of people making the world a better place. And now, how is, how is Karimation in Belgium? Is it a real big concept? It's nowhere. Well, in Belgium, we have a concept called humusation, which is a very natural way of doing things, but it's not really working as it is for now. So we're visiting everything. I went to Germany. I came here. I went to England, many countries.
44 min. 2 sec.
to see what they do, and we're trying to find the best solution for us. So for now it's not legal, but it's in discussion, and our mission today is to bring back the good information to our folks in Belgium and make sure it's going to be legalized. Excellent. Cool. Thank you. I'm going to take a quote that Dr. John Paul placed on one of his slides during the Science and God sessions.
44 min. 31 sec.
that was published. This was published in the Ecology of Carry-On Decomposition from the National Education and Knowledge. And it says, microbes symbiotically cohabitate with humans during life, but they also participate in the nature and trajectory of decomposition. The host death introduces a chaos in microbial communities as the body becomes a bounding source of nutrients. Now,
44 min. 58 sec.
Jean-Paul educated us that the human microbiome has 10 to 100 trillion bacteria. 10,000 species. That's 75 to 90% of our cells on our bodies are microbial. They're on our skin. They're in our nose. They're in our digestive systems. And your skin is two square meters. Your digestive tract being 30 square meters. Bacteria make up 1 to 3% of our body's mass.
45 min. 27 sec.
And 90 to 99% of microbes are in our gut. So we are designed to break down. That's the reality. And again, I'm an embalmer, okay? Part of my education, what I teach every day to these students is how to preserve somebody and to stop decomposition or rather temporarily halt it. But the reality is a big part of my lesson, and it's usually in one of my first lectures of every semester, is...
45 min. 56 sec.
that the body is designed to break down. It really is. If you were to be found in the woods, you would naturally break down. Your body naturally, due to the enzymes in your body, naturally digests itself. Your body literally digests itself. And the bacteria in your body increase that. Now, of course, if you have an individual that is found with excessive amounts of bacteria, microbes in their body,
46 min. 26 sec.
whether that be the environment that they're found in or whether that be the, you know, what's going on in their body. Obviously, you decompose quicker. You break down a lot quicker. But your body is designed to do this. It is designed to do this. Now, when we're looking at natural organic reduction, they do speed up this process, of course. And what they're doing is they're adding things like alfalfa that adds the microbes to that vessel.
46 min. 55 sec.
to assist with the speeding up of decomposition. They add straw, which helps with insulation. That helps with increasing the temperature of what's going on in that vessel. And they add usually wood chips or sawdust, which helps with the absorption of excess of fluids, right? So you don't want, as a person breaks down, we do break down into simpler elements, you do need something that is an absorbent factor. Of course, you do have
47 min. 24 sec.
During all of this process, there is air entering and circulating through this vessel, which reduces the putrescine and the cadaverine stages of decomposition, which reduces the smell that's taking place. And these facilities are using really high-tech HVAC systems.
47 min. 51 sec.
which are very highly engineered to do just this. I walked through, as I told you on Monday, I walked through this facility. I actually stood outside underneath the exhaust. We all did. And it was amazing that there was no smell coming from the exhaust outside. It's not like they were just sucking it out and nothing. It was no smell. This HVAC unit was amazing. But the way that they're doing this process, they are doing it to prevent or reduce all of that from taking place.
48 min. 10 sec.
And I know that's a concern. I know that when we're going before legal things, you're going to have, like anything else, any mode of disposition, the general public that is not educated on this, and that's why we're doing podcasts like this, and that's why they have conferences like TerraCon, is to educate us so that way we know what this is. And that is why groups like Return Home are so transparent about
48 min. 38 sec.
So that way we know what's going on. There's no hidden material. We don't have to worry about what's really going on. They're extremely transparent to ensure that we know the science behind this and we know the truth. And again, you're actually, this is all natural and your microbiome of your body is doing the work. Now, some of the other companies such as the Natural Funeral out of Colorado are
49 min. 3 sec.
They're using a different method instead of – they're still using alfalfa, and they're still using wood products and all of that. But at the end, they're using a different – their pods, instead of going into a separate machine to rotate, they're using a pod that's self-contained. At least their fourth-generation pod is self-contained.
49 min. 30 sec.
And what they're doing is it rotates on itself. And the same thing, it's all computerized. They're measuring the airflow. They're measuring the temperature. They're measuring weight. And they can see what stage of the process you are at. And they're able to monitor that and then know when to rotate that a couple weeks in. They rotate it again and, you know, speed up that process once the weight changes. But during that, they're using what they refer to as a TMAG.
49 min. 55 sec.
So they're using these tea bags that contain the microbes that they need in order to help speed this up. So that is, they have water. And if inside their pod, they actually have, inside their vessel rather, they actually have what looks like sprinkler heads that you would see that is, you know, watering that soil. But that water is going through there. It is entering through a tea bag in order to get there.
50 min. 24 sec.
which is adding those nutrients to the soil. The other thing that this material around the body adds is, you know, in addition to insulation to get those higher temperatures, it's also adding, you know, in the beneficial microbes and all of that, it's also adding a porous enough space that is allowing air and oxygen to flow through the pod and allowing that, you know, allowing that to properly
50 min. 51 sec.
circulate. And as I mentioned, absorbing any excess fluids that come from the body and that absorption also helps to destroy any odorous compounds that we may be wary of during this process. One of the most beautiful parts of this is that the family can participate in the process. The family can be part of the laying in ceremony. The family can add pictures to the side of the vessel. They can visit.
51 min. 21 sec.
their loved one and any day of the week they can visit them. And let me, some of these facilities will just buzz the family in so that they can go in and that they can visit their loved one. They can spend time with them. They told a story about a loved one that, you know, every morning he would have coffee with his wife. And so same thing, he would just, every morning he would bring coffee and set a cop, you know, one of the coffees on top of the vessel and,
51 min. 49 sec.
And he would have his morning coffee with her. And this is the same thing. I've seen people routinely in my time as a funeral director do that at cemeteries. I had a gentleman that would go to the cemetery right after I interred his wife. Grass wouldn't even grow yet. He's still looking at dirt. He would go every day. He'd water the ground, trying to speed up the grass. She had by far the greenest. When that grass grew, she by far had the greenest
52 min. 14 sec.
plot in the entire cemetery, but he would bring a lawn chair, he brought an end table, and he brought the parrot, their parrot, in a cage, and he would put the parrot on the end table, and he would just sit there in his lawn chair, read a book, you know, with his wife. It was beautiful, and you can do all of that, even though it's inside of a facility, and you're there for 90 days, you can still do all of that. Dr. Paul also put up a nice quote
52 min. 39 sec.
that was adopted from Jerry Sensor from A Grace Disguised, How the Soul Grows Through Loss. And I thought this was really touching. This is titled, Returning the Compost to the Soil is a Symbol. And it says, As the soil receives the organic matter and is enriched by it, so we absorb the loss of our loved one into our lives until it becomes a part of who we are.
53 min. 8 sec.
and we are enriched. I just thought that was so touching to read that and hear that. One of the nicest things, again, and this takes time, so we grieve for a long time. We never stop our grief, and as a funeral director, again, I've done many burials. I've done, you know, many, you know, I've involved many people over the years as well, and
53 min. 35 sec.
In doing that, it's a very quick process. Somebody passes away, we do arrangements, three days later we're interring the individual, two days later we're bringing them to a crematory, and then we're sometimes doing services in the days to follow, or we're providing that urn to the family if they don't want services. But it's quick. It's so quick. Someone dies and we're
54 min. 1 sec.
Almost in a rush is what I think about that. We're very much in a rush in order to, you know, handle the services almost immediately. And in some degree, we have to be because viewings do have to be closer to that time of death to get a good viewing. That person, you know, is embalmed and that is temporary. But we are on a time clock when it deals with when we work with this. Whereas in the case of termination,
54 min. 31 sec.
that person is laid in to the vessel very early on in the death. And that really maybe depends on, you know, if there's autopsies and things like that that take place. But very early on in the process, they are laid in the vessel. But you have 90 days to grieve before you get this back. And that's a good thing. That gives the family time to become one with the process. It gives you 90 days to be part of this process
54 min. 58 sec.
And, you know, the person's death isn't just this instant in the ground, we cry. And then afterwards, we're like, I don't really know what to do. You get to live that experience. And I keep saying that this isn't an experience. And if you listen to these testimonials that we had from our friends out in Washington here, they all have a common theme. We were at a retreat. We were told I was going to a conference. I'm telling you, this was a retreat. This was absolutely amazing. It was an experience. But
55 min. 28 sec.
I think that just comes from the nature of what natural organic reduction is. It's an experience. It's not a quick disposition. And, you know, the families that this is a experience of a family gets to live, which also means that we get to bring faith and religion and spirituality into this process. We were one with the earth and we returned to the earth. Okay. We are, you know,
55 min. 56 sec.
we were ashes and we will return to ashes, just like you hear in Catholicism we hear on Ash Wednesday, right? We will return to the earth. That is what Ash Wednesday symbolizes. And that is where this, you know, comes from as well, the impact that this has. This strengthens the communication and the relationships and the trust building that we see
56 min. 24 sec.
with our spiritual and our death care communities to allow us to, again, be a part of this and not just have it be a quick process. We can get children included in these rituals as well. It's not scary. These children can be a part of this. It takes time for children to understand things. Child grief is very complicated and it gives them time to accept and to be a part of this and
56 min. 54 sec.
For the rest of their lives, they can feel like they were a part of something and that it wasn't quick. They can be a part of it, and it helps them come to the reality of this situation. Next, I want you to hear from someone that you may recognize. She is very involved in the death care scene nationally. This is Jessica Wakefield from Better Place Forest. Better Place Forest is an amazing opportunity because you may ask yourself,
57 min. 24 sec.
what do I do with all of this? This is a whole cubic yard of compost. When I was counting bags at the return home facility, I think I counted around nine to 11 bags that come back. And that's a lot of compost. Okay. That is a lot. And the families ask the question of like, Hey, what am I going to do with all of this? And they can take all of it. And
57 min. 54 sec.
The question is that you can, if you do not have legal in your state, you can have your loved one go on a plane the same way that we would put a decedent on a plane to get home if they were on vacation or anywhere they want to be buried. We do this all the time. Funeral homes do this all the time. So we could do that. We can put them on a plane, send them to Washington State, to Colorado, to wherever the NOR facility is.
58 min. 22 sec.
they will go through this process and then at the end of the process all of that soil in their bags goes into a into an air tray just the same way that they made it to that facility and they would be put back on an aircraft and they would go home and the funeral director will pick up the composted remains on the other end and deliver those to the family but
58 min. 52 sec.
The big question would be, do I need a whole cubic yard? That does seem like quite a bit. And some families will take it. Maybe you have a large property. Maybe you want to spread this. You know, everybody gets some. You have places you want to scatter. This is not 200 cubic inches like you're used to with cremator remains. This is a whole cubic yard. So with that, you don't need keepsake urns. We could do full-size urns for the entire family and still have plenty left over.
59 min. 19 sec.
And you could spread a lot of this in your yard. You could go out to a forest. You can bring this anywhere you want. And it is dry. So since it's dried out, it doesn't have that moisture content that inhibits mold and other mildew. So you don't have to worry about that. It's very dried out. And since it's very dried out, you could put this in an urn and
59 min. 49 sec.
it will stay. You can put this into jewelry and it will stay. It has the carbon so you can do a lot of the same stuff that you would do with cremated remains and you could scatter it the same way. But because that there's so much, the one thing that these facilities all do is they all have partnerships with forests or farms or restoration groups where they will rehabilitate land that's eroded or needs
1 hr. 14 sec.
more soil. They have flower farms that will, you know, grow various things that depends on the state if it's allowed, you know, not allowed for, you know, for human or animal food growth, then therefore some flowers, you know, farms are very safe. But they can bring this to the forest. And sometimes the families will opt and say, hey, I'll take a small amount of this. You know, we each want this much of it, but the rest of it you can scatter. Or they,
1 hr. 43 sec.
feel the emotion in saying, hey, can you take some of this? And I want some of that, just a handful or a whole bag of this, to go into the forest owned by the NOR facility. And Return Home has woodlands in Washington State that they own where they are able to place all of these composted remains there.
1 hr. 1 min. 14 sec.
And again, families decide that. They just want a little handful, or maybe they want all of it. So again, you do have the option for that. And some families want to take it all and use it. So again, there's plenty of options. But one of those options is better place forests, where they will allow you to scatter around a tree, just like you would purchase a cemetery plot. In this case, you purchase a tree. And that tree may be a small tree. That may be a large tree.
1 hr. 1 min. 42 sec.
And obviously, large trees make, you know, maybe a little bit more stable versus smaller trees. Obviously, they're still growing. You know, there's a risk there. And, you know, that does determine the cost of the tree that you're purchasing. And if the tree is, you know, very large and it breaks, you still get that tree. That tree breaks. That tree doesn't get removed. Therefore, that is still your tree versus if it's a small tree, you know, or rather if you've spread around that tree. That's what I meant to say is
1 hr. 2 min. 10 sec.
If you already spread around that tree, that is your tree, and you get to keep that tree even though it breaks, they don't move it, it stays there, that's still your tree. But if you haven't scattered around that tree yet, and something happens to that tree, then they will give you the option to swap it for another tree. So they do have that option as well. But there is a limit, of course, of how many cremator remains or how many
1 hr. 2 min. 39 sec.
about 30 pounds of cremated remains or, you know, compost that you can place around. And that's because the cremated remains are not nutrient rich. So therefore they could kill the plant. So they do have to limit how many, how much of that you put in around a year. And the compost is so nutrient rich that it's on the other end where it's so nutrient rich that they have to limit you. So what they do is they do limit that to about 30 pounds a year. And then every year again,
1 hr. 3 min. 9 sec.
You know, people on average lose somebody every 13 years. Some people lose people much sooner. Some people lose people much further out. But the thing with this is that you can hold on to this, put it into a container, an urn or any container of your choice, and you can hold on to that for as long as you want. So even if you go, you know, within the same year, you could wait and do that. But 30 pounds is a lot. So you can, you know, by all means, still spread within the year multiple times.
1 hr. 3 min. 38 sec.
people. So let's hear from Jessica Wakefield and see what her takeaway of this conference was. Jessica, what should these individuals that did not come to Terracon 2025 and missed out on this great experience, what should they know so that they can attend Terracon 2026? I honestly think that this event is truly the future of our industry and it's a breath in a direction that I am very excited to see grow
1 hr. 4 min. 8 sec.
the compassion returning a little bit more to the actual experience of loss and funeral providing, and also the community of people who have taken the time to be here but came in with open hearts, and there was not a single person in this room that in any way, shape, or form would judge how or what you brought into this space, whether it was a doula or a funeral director or an embalmer or a cremationist,
1 hr. 4 min. 38 sec.
You're welcome here if you're wanting to be a part of the movement and learning about what the future can bring to the tradition and the industry itself. And I am Jess with Better Place Forest. We are a memorial forest program in the United States, and we have nine cremation scattering garden forests throughout the country.
1 hr. 5 min. 6 sec.
Again, I hope you guys can all join this conference in 2026. It really was an amazing experience. And if you weren't there, you missed out. And if you were there, it was great getting to know everybody. Again, I really hope to see you guys, you know, many times between now and then. But I do look forward to seeing everyone again next year.
1 hr. 5 min. 32 sec.
Before we go, I want to mention, again, we need to get this legalized in all 50 states. That's very important, okay, because we need to make sure that this is available, that this is an option for families for disposition of their loved ones. This conference had funeral directors. This had people that were interested in getting into NOR, people that were advocating on the legal level, on the legislative level, people that were
1 hr. 5 min. 56 sec.
just wanted to know how they could be a part of this movement, including individuals that were looking at this being their mode of disposition. They actually came to this conference to learn more about NOR because they want it personally for themselves. And I had some great conversations with these individuals that came for that reason.
1 hr. 6 min. 25 sec.
This is currently legal in 12 states, Washington, Oregon, California, Vermont, Nevada, Colorado, New York, Arizona, Maryland, Delaware, Minnesota, and Maine, Maine being the most recent one to legalize termination. And that happened in August 9th of 2024. So that was very recent. And then we have 13 states that have this introduced to the legislation that we need to get this passed. That's Illinois, Massachusetts,
1 hr. 6 min. 46 sec.
New Jersey, Virginia, Utah, Connecticut, Hawaii, Montana, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and New Hampshire. So we still have a lot of states that don't even have this introduced legislation yet. We need these states to get on board as well, and we need these states that have the legislation introduced to get this legislation passed and get this legalized, because
1 hr. 7 min. 14 sec.
We want, families want this, and it really is a supply and demand method. And we need to make a heavy supply and demand. We need to show demand. Because right now, if we're funeral directors in any state, doesn't matter where you are, and it's not legal, it doesn't mean, if it's not legal, doesn't mean you cannot send somebody to another state. You can put them on a plane, and just like we always do, we transport bodies every single day by plane.
1 hr. 7 min. 41 sec.
We can have them transported to a state where it is legal and where there are facilities, have the process take place, and then have the body sent back on a plane as composted remains, as terminated remains, and then provide them to the family. And that is a beautiful, beautiful thing for this family to be able to do that.
1 hr. 8 min. 11 sec.
But if we don't do that today, and yes, the cost is a little higher than having the facility currently in your state. And I understand that. But if we don't do this today, we're not going to show the demand and we're not going to have families know that this is a possibility. Whether or not the families are jumping for this right now, when we're at the arrangement table, we need to provide this as an option at that table. This is imperative. We need to provide this as an option at the table.
1 hr. 8 min. 35 sec.
So that way the families know it's an option and they can, even if they don't choose it, don't lose hope. Do not stop asking them. Provide that as an option. And then they may not do this, but you know what? Other family members are going to hear it and say, that's not for dad, but that's for me. And you know what? They're going to show the interest in this. They're going to ask for it. And then we're going to see these families choose this as their method of disposition and
1 hr. 9 min. 5 sec.
which means that if we send a few bodies out or if they say, you know what, I'm interested in this, and they can show the interest in this, they can show the demand in this, but even if that decedent is not being sent out to a state that does have facilities at this time, but we see the demands, that's showing that we have the ability to put a facility in our states and that when those facilities come, we have the demand to make those facilities viable.
1 hr. 9 min. 34 sec.
But we need to show the demand today, and we need to show our legislators that this is something we want, and this is something we need, and this is something our families want, and this is something our families need. Now, one big thing about dealing with the legislation is that it's nonpolitical and bipartisan, right? You're working with both sides of the aisle in this case. So we have to be very careful when we work with both sides of the aisle
1 hr. 10 min. 4 sec.
Because the information that's provided in one state, one state may be one side of something and another state may be another. And that may be areas that hot buttons do work. However, information does cross over from state to state as far as that information. And even if we didn't say it in our states, they're going to hear it from another one. And we have to be very careful. So the positioning on this is that we have to focus that this is about providing families choices
1 hr. 10 min. 34 sec.
Personal choices of disposition. We cannot focus on things that are about global warming or about freedom because those are areas that could cut us off politically in a bipartisan, nonpolitical environment where we need to stay in the safe zone. Yes, those may be words that we want to use, and those may be words that we're going to jump at because we're thinking environment, we're thinking all these things, and we're not wrong.
1 hr. 11 min. 3 sec.
Those factors are factors that do come into play. We're not wrong by saying them. But when we're dealing with legislation, we need to focus on areas of importance. And the true areas are that this is something emotional to the family. This is something that provides those families choices. This is something that connects these families with something that means something to them, right? But this provides a deep connection to the land.
1 hr. 11 min. 33 sec.
This provides farmers roots. This provides restoration of lands, erosion, things like that. This is going to give us nutrient-rich soil to help rebuild that environment. This is extremely important. This helps us rebuild the nutrient-rich environment of farms. What we don't want is an environment with hybrid regulation that happened in New York where they're trying to make this noncompetitive environment
1 hr. 12 min. 3 sec.
And they're trying to keep, they want this to stay within cemeteries, within cemetery commissions. And the byproduct of this, the terminated remains cannot leave that cemetery. They have to be scattered on cemetery land. And that does not do as good for the family as, you know, them being able to have some of that, for them to be able to bring that to a place of their choice. So that is not the optimal environment. Okay, that is too heavily regulated.
1 hr. 12 min. 31 sec.
It's good that it's legalized, but it's too heavily regulated, and we need to have a much more open environment, and we need to keep in mind that these families do want this back. Now, where the facility is located is maybe not as big of a problem as much as what we can do with that and how we can use it.
1 hr. 13 min. 1 sec.
Now, throughout this conference, I was absolutely honored to have at least two of my students join us in person in Washington State. They took the flight out, which was a six-hour flight out, which was absolutely amazing that they joined us. It just shows the dedication. And Cape Cod Community College had about 22 students that tuned in via Zoom. So absolutely amazing to have everybody in total.
1 hr. 13 min. 29 sec.
You know, we had quite a few of us represented from the college, and that was just an honor from us. We also had Professor Mirosu and myself representing the faculty in person, and we had our faculty back at the college representing via Zoom. So absolutely amazing. I'm glad everyone got to join in, and we also had educators from Kenyatta College up in
1 hr. 13 min. 56 sec.
upstate California. We had Arapahoe Community College from Denver, Colorado represented. Again, the representation was absolutely amazing. And of course, from the home state of Washington, we had Washington Technical College representing as well. And they had a beautiful booth for those students. And I did have the pleasure of meeting some of their
1 hr. 14 min. 25 sec.
students as well, which was awesome that they were able to make it. So again, huge shout out to professors Howe, Fredrickson, Hooper, and Mearsou for joining me out there. It's great for the educational environment to be included in this because these students are the next wave that if they're educated in this, then we can ensure
1 hr. 14 min. 51 sec.
that we have the proper information getting out there to the funeral homes, but we encourage existing practitioners to also get involved and learn more about this so that we can offer proper information to the families that we serve. That is extremely important. Announcing other events that are taking place. I will be running a seminar on proper note-taking, test-taking techniques, and
1 hr. 15 min. 18 sec.
study techniques. You may not believe it, but it doesn't matter your level of education. If you have a doctorate or if you're still in high school, whatever the case may be, believe it or not, proper note-taking, test-taking techniques and study techniques may not be as common as you may think. So I encourage you to go to the mortuarymayhem.com website. You'll find the advertisement for that, the listing for that,
1 hr. 15 min. 47 sec.
please sign up. We're going to be running these routinely, so sign up, scan the QR code on the website, click the links, and sign up for one of those sessions. Again, these are going to help you. It doesn't matter what level of education you're already at. You'll be amazed how much you'll learn about these topics, and you'll be amazed the takeaways from these
1 hr. 16 min. 15 sec.
Again, you could be doing phenomenal in your classes or you could be struggling in your classes. You can always do better. So again, go to mortuarymayhem.com, click the links or scan the QR codes on that page, and I hope to see you in the seminar. Thank you for listening to this episode of Mortuary Mayhem.
1 hr. 16 min. 43 sec.
For links to information discussed during this episode, please visit the website at www.mortuarymayhem.com. Do you have questions, comments, suggestions for topics, or want to be a guest on the show? Email us at podcast at mortuarymayhem.com. We should do this again sometime.